The problem is that you're using facts to argue against faith, and it's like trying to use a mathematical formula to argue against dancing, it's not going to rub with those who believe. I've come to accept that those who leave will do so of their own accord, not because of what others say.
Fred Franztone
JoinedPosts by Fred Franztone
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Arguments I’ve Had: Historical Accuracy and the Bible
by Saethydd inwhen i was a jw and still living with my parents i remember the way my father held what could almost be described as contempt for archeologists, paleontologists, and other scientists who dared to try explain what happened in past.
he justified this attidtude with the argument that these people don’t have enough evidence to make such claims with any certainty.
however, i see now that his viewpoint was more likely a defense mechanism to protect his presupposed conclusion that everything described in the bible actually happened.
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What is the current pulse in the organization with the reductions?
by SouthCentral ini have not seen jehovah’s witnesses in my neighborhood for several years now.
it appears that the cart witnessing has taken over.
congregations are being consolidated and witnesses are being forced to travel a greater distance than before.the burdens/privileges of elders seem to be ever increasing!.
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Fred Franztone
According to google trends, most of the interest in jw.org is coming from Africa, not surprising.
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Anyone else get a message from Hanged Man?
by pale.emperor ini dont know why i'd want to argue over something like this.
i've been aware of this theory for years.
as interesting as it is - it's still bullshit.. for future reference, i believe the bible to be a collection of fantasy, myth, real locations and crazy ramblings of psychedelic bloke stuck on patmos.. my reply:.
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Fred Franztone
The bible contains elements of astrology here and there, or at least an ancient precursor to what we would now call astrology, but the idea that the life of Jesus was an entirely astrological allegory is pure fantasy. Jesus was probably real, just a Jew from Nazareth (not Bethlehem) with some unorthodox views who had a small following, but only became truly famous a few decades after his death, much like Van Gogh, but without the talent. Unlike Van Gogh's story however, there were probably no incidents involving ears in Jesus's case, regardless of what the bible says.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
"they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if I were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character."- I hope that is true but I can't say I haven't heard that before only to have that dashed later and the person becomes one of the shunned.
It is always possible and I would never rule it out from happening, but they've had 12 years to shun me and are yet to do so. And they know me, they know how important impressions are to me; if they were to shun me they would lose me forever, it would be a 'bad witness' on their part, they wouldn't risk that.
They'll keep talking to me because that's the only way they'll ever get me to return. It won't work, but for me it doesn't matter, they think my eternal life hinges on me returning, and I know that we are all headed for the grave in the end, regardless of where we throw our spiritual hats.
If my conscience allows then perhaps when my parents are on their deathbeds, I may feign a re-conversion, just so they can pass away happy; a little white lie so that they can bow it out with some inner peace. I know this is of questionable ethicality, and if it feels wrong at the time then I won't do it. I could always just pull out the 'Jehovah can read hearts' line.
Each is responsible for his own path.
That's the crux of it. Each family is different, and for some families it may make more sense to go, although there is always the risk of raised expectations and further invitations. For my family it doesn't seem to be so important, if it were important to my dad that I attend, then he would have asked by now.
I replied to the text, and this was the pertinent part, I think this was the best way to do it. I hope it was.
Thanks for the offer but I don't think I'll be able to get down there next Sunday. I appreciate the invitation though. I hope the talk goes well for dad.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
A lot of inference going on here. Just to reiterate, my dad hasn't mentioned his talk to me; the invite came from my sister and I don't believe she's asking on behalf of my dad, they don't live together. If my dad wanted me there he would ask me himself. It may be my dad's first public talk at a kingdom hall but it isn't his first public speaking gig, he used to work in sales.
If my dad were to invite me personally then it would be different, although I still don't think I would go, for the reasons I've already stated. I detest the Watchtower and everything it stands for; I'm an apostate, an atheist, and by Watchtower standards an immense sinner. If I were to invite my dad to watch me give a talk on evolution, he would not come, and I would not expect him to. Likewise, I'm not setting foot in a kingdom hall if I don't have to, they make my skin crawl.
Going to a wedding or funeral at a kingdom hall isn't going to give anyone false hope as these occasions are not about the organisation. Public talks however are about the organisation. Those who are telling me I should go are making a lot of assumptions about the situation based on limited knowledge of it. I never for a minute implied that I was considering going or wanted convincing; all I asked for was advice on how to diplomatically decline the invitation. It should have been evident that I have many reasons for not wanting to go, some of which I think it's pretty clear are too personal for me to share. No big deal indeed...
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
I suppose it's an angle; they know that they can't invite me to attend for a circuit overseer or a memorial because those are tedious even for them to endure. A close family member giving their first talk however... there's a gimmick there.
The upside is that my dad can never have another first talk, so it will probably be the last time that I'm invited for a while. I wasn't even invited to my other sister's baptism, so it's not like I'm invited to every uncommon occurrence; in fact it's the rarity of the invitations which has left me feeling a little flustered.
What bugged me about the invitation was that it contained the words: 'no pressure', which felt a little disingenuous. There is always pressure with this religion; it's life or death in their eyes. When you write: 'no pressure', you're writing it because you know that you are in fact applying unwelcome pressure.
Anyway, I will be going with the busy 'excuse', because it's true, I'm too busy living my life to take time out for religion.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
I think that far from being supportive, my attendance would be a distraction. I haven't been inside a kingdom hall for 12 years, and I fear that it would divert attention away from what should be my dad's day. He's a big boy now, I'm sure he can get through a public talk without my support.
I do wish him well, but the thought of being in a kingdom hall and listening to (even a mere 30 minutes of) the watchtower's propaganda makes me feel quite unwell, and it would probably make me feel even worse to hear it coming from my own dad.
More importantly, my being there would give my family false hope that I may come back to the religion, and I don't want to do that to them; I don't want to toy with their emotions. It would benefit neither myself nor my family for me to go, it would benefit no one.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
Keep it friendly and non-confrontational. You can decline and still them well.
"Thanks for the invite. I wish I could! Give dad my best!"
Short, sweet, nice.I think I will be going with something like that on this occasion. Thank you all for your suggestions, it's interesting to see how a variety of people approach this kind of situation.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
"Thank you for the invitation. My conscience will not allow me to set foot in a Kingdom Hall. I am willing to discuss the reasons with you if you like, but be aware that such a discussion may be damaging to your faith. I will leave it up to you to initiate the conversation if you wish."
I think that's a little formal and apostate-sounding; I've no intention of de-converting her, I'm happy for her to live her life if she'll let me live mine. I don't want to come across as haughty or superior. I may just have to say that I'm busy on this occasion, as anything else will likely sound too stand-offish and could be damaging to familial relations. This is the first time she's asked since I left so I doubt it'll be happening too often.
We have also had invitations. If you do not explain to them why you won't attend, they will just continue to invite you. If you feel comfortable, speak from your heart. Be honest.
We have had to do this with our family. We told them we love them and nothing will change that. We will be there for them BUT if you don't believe in the doctrines, tell them.
You have one advantage, you are not baptized.
If you dodge them, they will just come back to you with more invites.
If people WANT to be in your life, they will, If not, at least you were honest with them. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.It's frustrating because I have had these conversations with my family, albeit not for many years now. It just doesn't seem to go in, they always believe it's possible that I may come back. It makes everything smoother if the topic just never comes up. It's difficult to know how to approach this; I may use the busy card this time and see how long it is till I receive another invitation.
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Invited to a talk: What to do?
by Fred Franztone inmy sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk.
i don't live particularly near to my family, but i'm not too far from them to make the journey, and i am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if i were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.. i haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and i would like to keep it that way; i only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service.
i don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so i need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.. i've considered saying that i'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and i'd rather she got the message that i'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.. any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?.
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Fred Franztone
My sister texted me last night with an invitation to watch our dad give his first ever public talk. I don't live particularly near to my family, but I'm not too far from them to make the journey, and I am on good terms with them, having never been baptised and so not disfellowshipped; they don't shun me and likely wouldn't even if I were disfellowshipped, it's not in their character.
I haven't been inside a kingdom hall since 2006, and I would like to keep it that way; I only intend to step inside one again in the event of a family wedding or funeral service. I don't want to be rude to my sister, ignoring the text isn't an option, so I need a diplomatic way of declining her invitation.
I've considered saying that I'm busy, but this leaves things open for her to ask again in the future, and I'd rather she got the message that I'm not interested, without me having to say so in an explicit way.
Any suggestions from those who have been in a similar situation?